The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Slave

The Dave Smith Instruments Pro 2 Analogue Synthesizer

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mr_rock
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by mr_rock » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:05 pm

So just my 2 cents here...

I'm using the Tempest as my master clock (no computer in my setup):
  • Nord Lead 3 syncs with no deviation
  • Pro2 jitters +/- 1 BPM
  • MEK is a crapshoot what it displays- I've see it off by as much as 10 BPM, but it *plays* in sync
  • TC Electronic D-Two is always off by a couple BPM but not jittering
It's not necessarily the 'fault' of your master clock (and I do realize the the stability from a computer generated clock can be iffy.) For me, I tend to ignore the displays and just go by how it sounds.

But for the price, I'd like to see the Pro2 not be drifting about as it does...
DSI Evo DT #198, Pro 2 #337, MEK #896, Tempest #3425 // Yamaha AN1X, RY30, RM1X // Nord Lead 3 // Virus Classic

My recordings: https://soundcloud.com/fuzzys-dead-mouse

Bach
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by Bach » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:45 pm

Well, I was just about to pull the trigger on buying a PRO 2, but this BPM sync issue is a big deal & I can't see myself investing all that $ into a synth with the "most powerful sequencer ever put into a synth" that I can't integrate into a simple midi setup. What a shame. I've read about this issue on various forums, and there isn't a single reply from DSI that even acknowledges there's a problem.

Bach
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by Bach » Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:54 pm

FYI I'd be midi-syncing it to Reason via an SPL Crimson on a Mac if anyone has any success stories they'd care to share.

ihearanewworld
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by ihearanewworld » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:31 pm

I can confirm constant tempo jumping when Pro 2 is slaved to MPC 1000, with very audible, unacceptable jumps in delay times. I have used an Arturia Origin and a Roland XP60 slaved to the same MPC for years, with tempo-synced delays and have never had this problem before. Unfortunately, this is not something remedied by "ignoring the display". I love the Pro 2 too much to get rid of it only for this reason; I guess I am going to have to save the tempo of each patch to match the particular song, but I can already foresee problems if I ever want tempo changes in the song. I don't feel I should have to purchase (and tote around) a separate MIDI clock device when the MPC has played well with several other synths in the past.

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Fuseball
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by Fuseball » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:18 pm

ihearanewworld wrote:I can confirm constant tempo jumping when Pro 2 is slaved to MPC 1000, with very audible, unacceptable jumps in delay times. I have used an Arturia Origin and a Roland XP60 slaved to the same MPC for years, with tempo-synced delays and have never had this problem before. Unfortunately, this is not something remedied by "ignoring the display". I love the Pro 2 too much to get rid of it only for this reason; I guess I am going to have to save the tempo of each patch to match the particular song, but I can already foresee problems if I ever want tempo changes in the song. I don't feel I should have to purchase (and tote around) a separate MIDI clock device when the MPC has played well with several other synths in the past.
Exactly! An innerclock Syncgen isn't going to help with an MPC-based setup! I wonder how it syncs to a Tempest?

It's hard to tell if the problem can be isolated to the delay line code. The sequenced notes sound and look pretty tight. It's just those constantly jumping delays that give away that something's wrong.
Prophet'08 PE #3591 | Tetr4 #2088 | MEK PE #1180 | Jupiter 6 | Juno 60 | Moog Sub Phatty | MS-20 mini | random digital stuff

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BobTheDog
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by BobTheDog » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:04 pm

With a decent clock source (everything I have tried) my Pro2 has no problem as long as the BPM is less than 200 where fast delays then start acting up, what BPM are you all using that are causing problems?

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Fuseball
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by Fuseball » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:33 pm

BobTheDog wrote:With a decent clock source (everything I have tried) my Pro2 has no problem as long as the BPM is less than 200 where fast delays then start acting up, what BPM are you all using that are causing problems?
Generally between 90 and 130 BPM. Personally, I don't get any delay sync problems when using the MIDI DIN connections and my DAW, Mac and MOTU FireWire interface or Machinedrum. It's only when connecting the Pro 2 via USB or using the MPC1000 as clock source.

I was kinda prepared for sync issues with Live or USB, but the dreadful syncing to MPC came as quite a shock. I know the 1000 with JJOS isn't the tightest MPC but I've had no problems syncing any other devices to it. Of course, when working OTB is exactly when I would like to use the sequencer and onboard delays the most.
Prophet'08 PE #3591 | Tetr4 #2088 | MEK PE #1180 | Jupiter 6 | Juno 60 | Moog Sub Phatty | MS-20 mini | random digital stuff

soundxplorer
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by soundxplorer » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:10 pm

I see most people mentioning the delay effect. Is the delay the only audible thing that gets out of sync? Are the sequencer notes still playing in time with the external clock source?

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BobTheDog
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by BobTheDog » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:54 pm

Fuseball wrote:
BobTheDog wrote:With a decent clock source (everything I have tried) my Pro2 has no problem as long as the BPM is less than 200 where fast delays then start acting up, what BPM are you all using that are causing problems?
Generally between 90 and 130 BPM. Personally, I don't get any delay sync problems when using the MIDI DIN connections and my DAW, Mac and MOTU FireWire interface or Machinedrum. It's only when connecting the Pro 2 via USB or using the MPC1000 as clock source.

I was kinda prepared for sync issues with Live or USB, but the dreadful syncing to MPC came as quite a shock. I know the 1000 with JJOS isn't the tightest MPC but I've had no problems syncing any other devices to it. Of course, when working OTB is exactly when I would like to use the sequencer and onboard delays the most.
90-130, thats pretty poor!

My guess is that the Pro2 syncs perfectly well to a good clock source but uses a small smoothing window time to allow it to change BPM quickly, maybe they should add an option to increase this window time.

I guess the next question is are people with problems using USB using Windows or Mac?

ihearanewworld
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by ihearanewworld » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:16 pm

Just did some more testing. At 100 BPMs and lower, I would sometimes, after a full minute, there was maybe one instance of audible jumping in the delay times. Usually, though, at 100 BPMs, everything was stable. However, as soon as I went to 101 BPMs, the audible jump in delay times happened once every couple of seconds. So, perhaps the solution is to change any tune I would normally have at 160 to 80. A frustrating workaround, certainly, but something I can live with if there are truly no problems under 100 BPMs. Unfortunately, I don't have more time to test right now.

As for regular note on/off timing, it seems to track just fine. Sometimes it takes a while to notice those things, but really, I'm not SUPER picky about timing. (Otherwise, I wouldn't be using an MPC1000 right?) I tested it by playing 8th note arpeggios, setting the length of each note to be staccato, then copied that track and made a similar sound on the XP60, panning each synth left and right. They seemed to be hitting at exactly the same time.

One other thing I noticed - if I sequenced something with a lot of whole notes, half notes, and longer, the jumpiness was worse. If I supplied the Pro 2 with a steady stream of 16th notes, it tracked better.

<Edit> I tried this with single osc patches, removing all assignable modulation points, and the result was the same as if I used a very complex patch. Noticed while doing that, that simply changing the modulation source or destination in the mod matrix caused the tempo to stutter. This happened whether the MIDI out cable was plugged in or not.

ogdanks
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Sl

Post by ogdanks » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:20 pm

I just purchased a Pro 2 and I am having similar issues. My ext clk says NO CLK regardless whether I am using USB or MIDI. Tried MIDI-OX (windows) and when I send midi clock to it, the sequencer plays and the bpm changes to whatever the bpm in MIDI-OX is set to and varies +/-1. My sync and track buttons are active in Ableton, but it will not sync. Kind of frustrating since I have a Push and would like to use it in conjunction with the Pro 2.

<Edit>I was just screwing around with it and apparently transport needs to be playing for the clock to be sent... :oops: I am still getting the +/-1 BPM changes and it is definitely wobbling the delays very noticeably.

slirak
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Slave

Post by slirak » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:41 pm

I decided not to wait for a future software fix that may never surface, and got myself an Expert Sleepers USAMO instead.

This nifty little thingamabob uses a VST (or AU or AAX) instrument to encode MIDI into audio. You then assign the instrument to a spare audio output (you'll need a dedicated one) and hook it up to the small hardware box. The hardware will convert the audio into MIDI.

The end result: no more audible warbling. :)

It does suck, having to fork out more dough in order to get a $1.999 synth to work properly. But at least the USAMO is cheap (£83.33 ex VAT) compared to a Sync Gen. They don't do exactly the same thing of course, but for this application, the USAMO does the job nicely.

PS
The display still move about ~1 bpm, but that only goes to show that it's not reliable when using an external clock source.

Pym
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Slave

Post by Pym » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:25 am

Like I mentioned in the similar P12 thread, I have a fix for this that will be in the next OS. It's already working on the P6
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ogdanks
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Slave

Post by ogdanks » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:43 am

Awesome! Please keep us posted with this fix! I've been able to slave Ableton to the Pro2 clock and its kind of a hard workaround with the EXT and transport. Can't really launch clips and such but it works. Wish that sequencer would send midi and audio though.

ihearanewworld
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Slave

Post by ihearanewworld » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:08 pm

Glad to hear about the fix. Thanks Pym.

TheDiePie
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Slave

Post by TheDiePie » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:59 pm

Hi Forum,

after weeks of sync-testing the pro 2 in almost every possible setup i got the conclusion, that my very loved P2
was born with a massive bug in syncronizing sequencer, arp and delays. :shock:

It is absolutely impossible to snyc the P2 with any other device of my setup - Analog Four, Monomaschine, NI-Maschine, TI2,
nor any VST (Spark or V-collection).

My DAW is Cubase 8pro (8.01 on Yosemite 10.10.2), no chance either on LIVE 9.1.

I want to point out, that the problem is evident even the Pro2 is in midi-clock master mode. In slave-mode the syncing
can be callend an desaster - it looses its timing almost at once after starting a clip. The delays work like described
above.

Please, dear DSi, fix that bug soon. I love my Pro2 because of 100 reasons, but this bug makes me crazy!

DP

soundxplorer
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Slave

Post by soundxplorer » Tue Mar 24, 2015 2:28 pm

TheDiePie wrote: Please, dear DSi, fix that bug soon. I love my Pro2 because of 100 reasons, but this bug makes me crazy!

DP
A fix is coming (probably this summer after the P6 is released), see Pym's reply just 3 posts up from yours.

ogdanks
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Slave

Post by ogdanks » Thu May 21, 2015 6:39 am

Any update on the firmware? I would love to test! :mrgreen:

TheDiePie
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Slave

Post by TheDiePie » Tue May 26, 2015 11:42 pm

...it becomes warmer from day to day - looks like summer! :mrgreen:

ogdanks
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Re: The Pro-2 Sequencer does constantly change the BPM in Slave

Post by ogdanks » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:13 pm

Summer is in the air! Any updates yet Pym? Because spending 500 more US dollars on a midi sync device seems a little bit of a PITA when you spend 2000 US dollars on a synth.

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