URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

The Dave Smith Instruments Prophet-12 Analogue Synthesizer

Moderator: Pym

Kermit
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:41 pm

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by Kermit » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:42 pm

THANK you sooo much AlanC!!

Got the same results as RobbaSvenna when downgrading from 1.1.2 to 1.1.1.
In the 1.1.2 OS the 11kHz level is the same in all voices.

RobbaSvenna
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 7:40 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by RobbaSvenna » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:46 pm

Thank you for that image Alan C, much appreciated! I sent that audio file, and another one with a pulse wave, to DSI support and eagerly awaiting their reply...

User avatar
silvain
Posts: 244
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:07 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by silvain » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:57 pm

Re 11kHz mod signal rate: It's no problem with slow sources. But try an oscillator at a reasonable to high pitch as a source. It doesn't bleed, but it will add that 11kHz noise to a played note.
Depending on the architecture and interaction of hardware and software, an anti-aliasing filter between osc audio out(s) and the mod matrix could see to that. Depends on how it's connected. No one would like an anti-aliasing filter at 11kHz on the audio output. :(

AlanC
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:32 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by AlanC » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:03 pm

In case it's any help, the spectrum analysis plug-in I've been using is Voxengo Span. It's available free as an AU for the Mac, or a VST / VST3 for Windows and Mac.

http://www.voxengo.com/product/span/

If you Google it you'll find it's well regarded.

User avatar
F5D
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:33 pm
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by F5D » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:48 am

Typically I cannot hear any digital noise from my P12, at least when connecting only headphones to it. It is clean. I use 230 V with grounded power cable. I once heard the digital noise posted by the OP, when I got my P12, but it was in extreme conditions. I am not sure what audio cables I had connected, but I had quite a lot of compression / limiting (about 20 dB) going on in Logic when monitoring the P12. Then, if I did not play anything, the limiter increased the level in Logic and I could hear this high frequency fast tick tick tick sound, when turning any of the P12 knobs. It could have been that there was slight amount of this noise even without touching anything, hard to say now afterwards. Also, the ticking / sizzling sound got louder if I increased the levels at the character section, especially the high shelving "air". When I actually played something, the digital noise went very low in level.

I believe in some cases this is related to the ground connections. I always try to avoid connecting the ground of any synth to any other device, so I use pseudo-balanced cables to the mixer or audio interface. Switching electronics leak current pulses through the audio cable shield and couple to the signal. This path needs to be cut. I think after hearing this sound, I made sure that I had my pseudo-balanced cables in use that do not allow ground currents to flow. I have not heard the sound since. I once had similar problems with Novation K-Station, and I had a ground loop due to the midi cable! Of course it is possible that some device has a fault and leaks the digital noise inside the unit. Then it is best to contact DSI for troubleshooting and possible replacement. As has been mentioned, they want to sort these things out.
F5D @ Soundcloud: P12 Windscale Pads, Prophet 12 Canada (BOC), Prophet 12 Demo, Prophet '08 demo, Prophet '08 Textures - DSI Synths: Prophet 12, Prophet '08 PE, Pro-2

Kermit
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:41 pm

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by Kermit » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:53 am

"er increased the level in Logic and I could hear this high frequency fast tick tick tick sound,"

I wish mine had a tick tick sound.

The 11kHz thing me and RobbaSvenna are talking about is far far away from
a light tick tick sound. You can cut thru glass with our 11k "beam".

I will probably just return mine.

User avatar
F5D
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:33 pm
Location: Finland
Contact:

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by F5D » Tue Aug 05, 2014 10:48 am

Kermit, I listened to the wav-file that you posted. The sound I heard with mine was very similar. In addition to that the noise made a louder ticking pulse when turning any knob of the synth. But I heard these only when I had huge limiting going on, lifting the noise level a lot, and the connections were made using regular unbalanced cables. It is possible that there is something wrong with your synth, and the sound is there independent of the cables used.
F5D @ Soundcloud: P12 Windscale Pads, Prophet 12 Canada (BOC), Prophet 12 Demo, Prophet '08 demo, Prophet '08 Textures - DSI Synths: Prophet 12, Prophet '08 PE, Pro-2

AlanC
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:32 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by AlanC » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:22 pm

To put what I hear from my P12 into perspective, here it is after I've been playing a patch that doesn't exhibit the 11kHz peak to any degree:

Image

The "Distant Prophets" :wink: are there, as are a couple of spikes at 8kHz and 16kHz which come from my Roland Studio Capture (which is rated as having a 90dB SNR), and so is the 11kHz peak... at less than -102dB.

The vast majority of the time the Roland Studio Capture is going to be adding more noise than the P12, but even then it's going to be at about -96dB, and I certainly can't hear that. The only time I've clearly heard the P12's 11kHz peak was with the patch whose spectrum I first posted, and that was because the delay lines were massively boosting it.

So while there certainly seem to be a few problem P12's out there, I'd expect a normal one wouldn't show this issue to any significant degree under anything other than exceptional circumstances.

RobbaSvenna
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 7:40 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by RobbaSvenna » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:35 pm

Thanks for the perspective Alan C! I'm still waiting for a reply from support. I guess they open their office in a couple of hours, while here in Sweden I'm on my way home from mine haha..
Keeping my fingers crossed hard for a "simple hardware fault" on my unit..

RobbaSvenna
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 7:40 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by RobbaSvenna » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:58 am

Got the answer from support, and my main board is faulty. So we're gonna do a board swap! So soon I'll be a happy camper and able to enjoy this wonderful synth like the rest of you! :)
I gotta give kudos to the DSI support, I got fast and amazing help!

My only problem now is to replace the main board myself.. I'm not very handy with electronics haha.. :)
Anyone who's done a board swap that calm my shaky hands? :D

Kermit
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:41 pm

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by Kermit » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:39 am

Board swap here as well!

The DSI support has been awesome.

And RobbaSvenna, the swap will be easy. ;-)

AlanC
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:32 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by AlanC » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:44 pm

I've opened my P12 to swap a dodgy pitch wheel; it was a very easy job.

After having opened a couple of Yamaha and Roland synths to replace backup batteries I'd also say that I was surprised by how neat the interior of the P12 is. OK, I guess electronics have come a long way since the 80's and 90's, but I really wasn't expecting how little there actually is in there. :shock: :lol:

RobbaSvenna
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 7:40 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by RobbaSvenna » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:15 pm

:lol:

MakesSynthToMe
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:57 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by MakesSynthToMe » Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:32 pm

Wanted to add what I've found with my P12, here's a few screen captures from SPAN (thanks Alan C for the link).

I upgraded from 1.0.3 to 1.1.2 afterwards but had the same results (it actually raised the spikes a few db's). Also in the last capture, that's with no notes being played.

The auto sense on my Roland Studio capture, if used lowers the volume to a less pronounced sound, but once that's off it gets pretty harsh. Especially with headphones.


Kepler
Image

It's a Prophet
Image

Sine Wave
Image

Bank 1_14
Image

User avatar
BobTheDog
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sun Nov 20, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by BobTheDog » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:27 pm

contact DSI, that spike is way too loud.

cl516
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:17 am
Location: Toronto

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by cl516 » Fri Aug 08, 2014 9:20 am

I've had 2 module units in my possession and one of them definitely had this noise.

Fortunately for me it was a loaner unit, because my original unit was in for repair due to faulty buttons.

I now have the original unit without the noise.

When I emailed support about the 11k noise, they insisted it was an OS problem which was already fixed after update, even though I told them both units in my possession tried the different operating systems. But from my experience, updating the OS on that loaner unit did nothing.

Instead, my original unit now has no 11k noise, but under a freq analyzer looks like much of the audio signals coming from the unit are bandwidth limited at around 16k. No idea why this is. Must be a DSP oscillator thing, even though many softsynths go well up to 35k.

User avatar
Fuseball
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 9:06 am
Location: London
Contact:

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by Fuseball » Fri Aug 08, 2014 11:25 am

This does make me wonder whether the 11kHz spike is present with every P12 but louder on some rather than others? At what point is the spike loud enough to deserve a board swap?

In the year I've had the P12 it has given me listener fatigue and set off my tinnitus like no other synth I own. I had put that down to the character of the synth and tried to program around it. Perhaps it is the 11kHz spike after all? Using Spectrum or Span my spike hasn't quite reached the heights as some on here, reaching around -75db with the fundamental at around -30db, and almost always due to the delay lines.

As it stands I'm really not sure if I should pursue a board swap (unsure if the problem is bad enough on my instrument), put up with the discomfort or sell it on.
Prophet'08 PE #3591 | Tetr4 #2088 | MEK PE #1180 | Jupiter 6 | Juno 60 | Moog Sub Phatty | MS-20 mini | random digital stuff

MakesSynthToMe
Posts: 29
Joined: Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:57 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by MakesSynthToMe » Fri Aug 08, 2014 6:31 pm

I contacted support, and they're going to do a board game swap here. Fuse, I was in the same boat, and just figured it was the sound of the synth. I'm happy to know it's an issue that can be resolved as opposed to an inherent character. I'll post back as soon as the board shows up and can make a comparison.

Kermit
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:41 pm

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by Kermit » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:36 am

Problem solved!

New motherboard and my synth´s like the best ever....except for the damn LFOs that drifts out of tempo when trying to sync them to the arpeggiator or another lfo. Hmmm.

New thread about the LFOs coming up. :-)

RobbaSvenna
Posts: 177
Joined: Sun May 06, 2012 7:40 am

Re: URGENT!!!! Some digital sound leaking in my p12 patches.

Post by RobbaSvenna » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:08 pm

Swapped my main board yesterday, and voila - I now have the most awesome synth in the world! :D

Post Reply